Cowes 2010 update

[TonyToll]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

The escence of Marathon was always supposed to be a no-nonsense class, with as little red tape as possible, running courses of the more traditional long distance Ocean Race style. The rules were intended to be as easily understood & policeable as possible, with no homoligation or measurement certificates required. (or fees for such)

That formula is what has made the series attractive to many, and in particular has drawn quite a few 'old racers' out of the woodwork who have long since hung up their helmets because they couldn't be arsed with the ever increasing RYA cost & endless palava that powerboat racing had become..

I think that if the Governing body 'now' tries to implement all this (which lets face it, is no more than another 'tax'), after agreeing the simple formula, those who have shown interest, or signed up will quickly become dissolusioned with it all.

All very short sighted indeed in my opinion. Powerboat racing is already in an absolute tail spin, it doesn't need any more help with failure.

I could not agree more, whilst I am happy and enjoy running my boat for pure pleasure normally, getting ready for a race gives a l little more purpose, I have always wanted to compete in the CTC and this year being the 50th anniversary I feel is a great time to do so. However I must admit I have found the rules, regulations and cost to be somewhat off putting.

First, I now need a measurement cerificate (£75.00) for a one off race?? I just want to go to Torquay and back, I dont mind what class I'm in because the boat is 22 years old, more interested where we might finish in the field.

Second, licences, to go to Torquay you have to have International £275.00) each plus Medicals and in order to get a licence have to provide CV's or take a training course, In my time I have probably competed in some 40+ races and my potential crew have all raced at some stage and been boating for at least 40 years, but I have to admit that was not in the last two years so perhaps fall outside the criteria.

Third, I do not got a compass deviation yet, must recertify the liferaft etc, etc,

Fourth Entry fee £800.00

oh and not forgeting need to get the boat ready. Then fill it with fuel!

I will admit powerboat racing has never been a cheap sport but It seems to me today that powerboat racing is on its uppers compared to years gone by and more legislation will enevitably serve to reduce the field still further.. Just my opinion.

TT

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by OldMan

Another is because the Powerboat Division of the RYA has budgetary targets to meet which of course increase year on year
.

Well, if the squeeze is put continually harder on 'those left standing', 'those left standing' will soon be so few in numbers that even the RYA accountants will realise they've killed the sacred cow.
It simply doesn't work that each time you reduce participating numbers by increasing costs & aggro, you 'up' the individual cost to meet the shortfall. You don't need a degree to fathom that one out.

What possible difference does imposing worthless measurement certs on a class like Marathon make to reducing the possibility of another fatal accident like Dover?...None.

As I fear the RYA don't really want powerboat racing under their wing, is it time for a handover to a voluntary group to look after the UK's interests in the sport?
I'm convinced that those who already work (tirelesly) within clubs etc to run UK powerboating (and I'm refering to the likes of Brian & Pat Peedel, Dave & Shirly Simpkins, Barrie & Sheena Williams, etc, etc) do more work fighting with, & attempting to, keep things on track with the RYA, than they would be doing just running it completely themselves, in other words, there would be far less work involved for those volunteers if they just did it ALL themselves, everything! And the cost saving????? well, Mike, Brian, Dave, Barrie, you know the figures.

[blind dog]

i know this is creeping off the cowes thread but why are we struggling with entrys so much when other forms of motor sport are still booming.im not convinced its soley money and i know several people that are close to saying they have had enough of the changing rules and hassle that goes with them.at the end of last year marathon seemed to be booming but now seems to be cowes and not alot else

[flightracingteam]

Hi Guys

I have read this thread with great interest! As person that's been banished to the dark side of the moon I feel that I have a right to speak up. I spent over five years of my life attending numerous meetings at the RYA and the one thing that was blatantly obvious was that JP and the RYA at no time represented the best interests of powerboat racing in the UK. Nor did they represent the best interests of motorboating in the UK period. The RYA stands for the Royal YACHTING Association. They are only interested in and only have ever been interested in boats with sticks. If you guys can't get your head round that then it is about time you did. They do not represent your best interests and they never will. The motorboating and powerboat racing sections of the RYA is a joke and has been for a long time. The majority of the committee members are over 65 to 70 years old, if not older! Most of them do not own a boat and have never owned a boat. Most of them have no boating qualifications whatsoever and most of them have never raced. Yet these are the people dictating the Sport. And before somebody points it out to me, I am not talking about people like Brian and Bob - or even Barrie Williams - all of which have raced or are racing. I am talking about people such as Terry Herring, Ann Robinson, Denise Monteith, John Read - as an example Denise Monteith sits on Course Approvals - that's a joke - she couldn't navigate her way out of a soggy paper bag let alone plot lats and longs on a chart. Ann Robinson is now chairman of ORC - and her boating qualifications are what? Terry Herring has no boating qualifications and has never owned a boat in his life. These people are the RYAs "experts" and I use that term very loosely. JP got rid of all the people who had the audacity to actually tell him what he was doing to the Sport and the long term impact - he didn't care - all he was concerned about was the figures and protecting his job/position and power. Just for the record the RYA claim to be the governing body and they are the law - this is a load of rubbish - they have no government mandate whatsoever to claim that and if it was challenged in a court of law - the RYA would lose and they know it.

If the consensus of opinion throughout powerboat racing is that the RYA no longer represent your interests and you decide to form another organisation that does - then that body as long as it has the majority would become the lead body in the UK and would be recognised by the UIM under their own mandate - so the choice is yours. Pay, pay, pay the RYA for nothing or rethink where you want to go. The RYA is a money making organisation and don't you forget it.

Kind regards
Gary Manchester

[Captain Chaos]

interesting reading on this thread all of a sudden

[Carl]

Originally Posted by TonyToll

I could not agree more, whilst I am happy and enjoy running my boat for pure pleasure normally, getting ready for a race gives a l little more purpose, I have always wanted to compete in the CTC and this year being the 50th anniversary I feel is a great time to do so. However I must admit I have found the rules, regulations and cost to be somewhat off putting.

First, I now need a measurement cerificate (£75.00) for a one off race?? I just want to go to Torquay and back, I dont mind what class I'm in because the boat is 22 years old, more interested where we might finish in the field.

Second, licences, to go to Torquay you have to have International £275.00) each plus Medicals and in order to get a licence have to provide CV's or take a training course, In my time I have probably competed in some 40+ races and my potential crew have all raced at some stage and been boating for at least 40 years, but I have to admit that was not in the last two years so perhaps fall outside the criteria.

Third, I do not got a compass deviation yet, must recertify the liferaft etc, etc,

Fourth Entry fee £800.00

oh and not forgeting need to get the boat ready. Then fill it with fuel!

I will admit powerboat racing has never been a cheap sport but It seems to me today that powerboat racing is on its uppers compared to years gone by and more legislation will enevitably serve to reduce the field still further.. Just my opinion.

TT

and sadly thats why im out,even if it was just the cpc

[Jon Fuller]

Originally Posted by flightracingteam

Hi Guys

I have read this thread with great interest! As person that's been banished to the dark side of the moon I feel that I have a right to speak up. I spent over five years of my life attending numerous meetings at the RYA and the one thing that was blatantly obvious was that JP and the RYA at no time represented the best interests of powerboat racing in the UK. Nor did they represent the best interests of motorboating in the UK period. The RYA stands for the Royal YACHTING Association. They are only interested in and only have ever been interested in boats with sticks. If you guys can't get your head round that then it is about time you did. They do not represent your best interests and they never will. The motorboating and powerboat racing sections of the RYA is a joke and has been for a long time. The majority of the committee members are over 65 to 70 years old, if not older! Most of them do not own a boat and have never owned a boat. Most of them have no boating qualifications whatsoever and most of them have never raced. Yet these are the people dictating the Sport. And before somebody points it out to me, I am not talking about people like Brian and Bob - or even Barrie Williams - all of which have raced or are racing. I am talking about people such as Terry Herring, Ann Robinson, Denise Monteith, John Read - as an example Denise Monteith sits on Course Approvals - that's a joke - she couldn't navigate her way out of a soggy paper bag let alone plot lats and longs on a chart. Ann Robinson is now chairman of ORC - and her boating qualifications are what? Terry Herring has no boating qualifications and has never owned a boat in his life. These people are the RYAs "experts" and I use that term very loosely. JP got rid of all the people who had the audacity to actually tell him what he was doing to the Sport and the long term impact - he didn't care - all he was concerned about was the figures and protecting his job/position and power. Just for the record the RYA claim to be the governing body and they are the law - this is a load of rubbish - they have no government mandate whatsoever to claim that and if it was challenged in a court of law - the RYA would lose and they know it.

If the consensus of opinion throughout powerboat racing is that the RYA no longer represent your interests and you decide to form another organisation that does - then that body as long as it has the majority would become the lead body in the UK and would be recognised by the UIM under their own mandate - so the choice is yours. Pay, pay, pay the RYA for nothing or rethink where you want to go. The RYA is a money making organisation and don't you forget it.

Kind regards
Gary Manchester

Gary, I can't help thinking that whilst much, or most of what you say in this post is in my opinion correct, you do seem to practice the old Running with the Hare & Hunting with the Hounds trick! You 'were' RYA through & through, and weren't you 'at one' with Denise, or even get her placed where she is?

Not sure what the way forward is, but things cannot continue in the direction they're going. Though maybe a complete meltdown IS needed so that something can rise from the ashes. Not sure.

[flightracingteam]

Hi Jon

You are absolutely right apart from two points. You say I was "RYA through and through". That is not true. The reason I worked with the RYA so closely was for the love of the Sport not the love of the RYA. Famous saying keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer. The only way I stood any chance of making a difference was to be in a position where I could do that. Unfortunately my efforts failed miserably because politics, power and money corrupt.

The statement regarding Denise is untrue. I was very unhappy about Denise being RAM Chairman and my opinion was voiced at the time but no one else wanted to do the job and JP forced my hand.

As for Denise being on Course Approvals I voiced my opinion at the time and again was ignored by JP. Haven't you guys worked it out yet - JP always gets what he wants by manipulation and intimidation for example - as you know I was the UIM Cominoff UK Representative. I received a 100% from all the world offshore nations - JP promptly booted me off the Committee via various dubious dealings resulting in him sitting on THREE UIM Committees - which is against the UIM Rules. How did that happen? However, the row was so great within the UIM from other countries who were appalled at his behaviour leading to little respect for the UK UIM members, JP failed to remove me as a UIM Commissioner.

All I was, and still am, interested in is the preservation of our Sport - a Sport which I have been involved in since I was 14 years old - long before JP. The Sport needs to ditch politics, ditch the corruption, ditch power hungry hangers on and get back to basics and do the job. This will never be achieved all the time you are funding an RYA very commercial department. Just remember - the most important thing - the RYA is not a Charity - it is a money making organisation.

Kind regards
Gary Manchester

[DAVE]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Gary, I can't help thinking that whilst much, or most of what you say in this post is in my opinion correct, you do seem to practice the old Running with the Hare & Hunting with the Hounds trick! You 'were' RYA through & through, and weren't you 'at one' with Denise, or even get her placed where she is?

Not sure what the way forward is, but things cannot continue in the direction they're going. Though maybe a complete meltdown IS needed so that something can rise from the ashes. Not sure.

While I'm certainly not going to defend the position of some of the people in positions of responsibility and/or authority within the various commitees working around our sport, (no names no pack Drill) and while it is true that many of them have never touched, let alone raced in a boat, It is probably because those who have raced or are still racing dont have the time to get involved with some of the decision making ...

Which means....to quote a film I saw once....

"Decisions are made by those that turn up"

We could all name people who just turn up....moan a bit...race their boat ..and go home. I used to do that..and to be fair..its great. No responsibilty, nobody moaning at you....just focus on the boat and the race. Simples....

How many actually get stuck in and try to run events, or take the time and effort required to turn up at meetings during a working day to try and ensure our sport is governed sensibly, with varying degrees of success.

Sorry for the rant, but it seems to me, we are all guilty to some extent for the state of our own sport.

Rant over.

[Jon Fuller]

Dave, I'm sure you're right. I have now tried twice to help with whatever I could RYA wise, once back in the mid 90's along with Ben Mazur and Tony Davis. back then, it was Dredge who grinned at you knowingly whilst you sat in a meeting for ferkin hours waiting for your bit to come up, only to find the deals had already been done prior to the meeting in the usual corridor dealing way and your time was totaly wasted. The image of that smug grin stayed with me long enough to walk away from racing in '98, and continue to make me wince until 2007 when Mike Lloyd started the long process of getting RB08 on its feet, where I again attempted to help, eventually leading to the Marathon debarcle we have now. I'm the first to admit the Marathon rules were not perfect and definitely needed some fettling. As I've said before, I'm quite happy to take those mistakes on the chin myself as much of that wording was mine, so my fault.
However, the rules as we see them now are quite different and have many additions & changes over the original, and as far as I can make out, virtually none of those changes were sort, or agreed by the relevant committees (TWG & ORC)....Go figure.

It was also a huge mistake to take these rules to the UIM, as that meant not only handing over power to them, but leaving representation (of the UK interest & the class in general) to 'others'. As I say, a massively naive move. Mike and I are literally kicking ourselves for that.

Anyway, onwards & sideways eh.

[Pennpromo]

Originally Posted by DAVE

While I'm certainly not going to defend the position of some of the people in positions of responsibility and/or authority within the various commitees working around our sport, (no names no pack Drill) and while it is true that many of them have never touched, let alone raced in a boat, It is probably because those who have raced or are still racing dont have the time to get involved with some of the decision making ...

Which means....to quote a film I saw once....

"Decisions are made by those that turn up"

We could all name people who just turn up....moan a bit...race their boat ..and go home. I used to do that..and to be fair..its great. No responsibilty, nobody moaning at you....just focus on the boat and the race. Simples....

How many actually get stuck in and try to run events, or take the time and effort required to turn up at meetings during a working day to try and ensure our sport is governed sensibly, with varying degrees of success.

Sorry for the rant, but it seems to me, we are all guilty to some extent for the state of our own sport.

Rant over.

Dave,
You and many others have put loads of time and effort into the well being of the sport, organising clubs, races and sitting on comittees. We all know how frustrating that can be and as you well know its a thank less task. Usually it involves someone phoning you just as you are about to go tobed to explain why they don't like a new rule. The last thing you want to hear when yo u are on a promise !
The sad fact is that in recession numbers will dwindle and costs for those who choose to continue to partake will rise to cover the others loss.
Not much any of us can do about it apart from the fact that the "paperwork" costs have risen far less than the price of fuel !

[DAVE]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Dave, I'm sure you're right. I have now tried twice to help with whatever I could RYA wise, once back in the mid 90's along with Ben Mazur and Tony Davis. back then, it was Dredge who grinned at you knowingly whilst you sat in a meeting for ferkin hours waiting for your bit to come up, only to find the deals had already been done prior to the meeting in the usual corridor dealing way and your time was totaly wasted. The image of that smug grin stayed with me long enough to walk away from racing in '98, and continue to make me wince until 2007 when Mike Lloyd started the long process of getting RB08 on its feet, where I again attempted to help, eventually leading to the Marathon debarcle we have now. I'm the first to admit the Marathon rules were not perfect and definitely needed some fettling. As I've said before, I'm quite happy to take those mistakes on the chin myself as much of that wording was mine, so my fault.
However, the rules as we see them now are quite different and have many additions & changes over the original, and as far as I can make out, virtually none of those changes were sort, or agreed by the relevant committees (TWG & ORC)....Go figure.

It was also a huge mistake to take these rules to the UIM, as that meant not only handing over power to them, but leaving representation (of the UK interest) to 'others'. As I say, a massively naive move. Mike and I are literally kicking ourselves for that.

Anyway, onwards & sideways eh.

Sideways is probably better than we are doin at the moment..

Wouldnt mind a bit of sideways....

[Jon Fuller]

Bpbra?

[DAVE]

Unlikely....

It would take some doin I reckon.

[Renegade]

The ski racers are not RYA so it can be done.

Gary, i have to say, you do come out with some! You mention the name's\of people who you say are not up\to a particular job but the general thought when you got on, 'the what ever it was you were on' was much the same.
Did you feel anti RYA while on your jaunts to foreign shores? i bet not!!!!!

I sorry but i dont believe a word you say.

[lohring]

The 2010 UIM rules Section 1200.3.2 make no mention of a 50 mph maximum speed for historic marathon boats. The version of the UIM rules posted on the Cowes 2010 web site have this limitation. If there is that limitation, how will it be enforced?

Lohring Miller

[motorvator]

Originally Posted by Jon Fuller

Bpra?

Jon, you just answered as I was going to say.

For you to win you have to speak as one voice, seems that things can be changed at the moment just on an individuals whim.

The association doesn't have to be an expensive thing, just a democratic organisation that puts forward the views of those who actually pay to go racing and is supported by all it's members.

OCRDA seems to work well in this regard.

[flightracingteam]

Originally Posted by Renegade

The ski racers are not RYA so it can be done.

Gary, i have to say, you do come out with some! You mention the name's\of people who you say are not up\to a particular job but the general thought when you got on, 'the what ever it was you were on' was much the same.
Did you feel anti RYA while on your jaunts to foreign shores? i bet not!!!!!

I sorry but i dont believe a word you say.

Hi Paul

Firstly I don't care what you think - all I have stated are the facts. The state of the sport currently is testament to what I and Jon Fuller have both said in our different ways.

As for the foreign jaunts - I only ever did three trips (Turkey, Stockholm and Australia) - and I would have been better reimbursed if I had done Jury Service. And for your information it was not the RYA that paid - it was the Sports Council because it comes under UK representation at International Sports meetings. The trips in total involved a minimum of four weeks away from business at my expense.

Kind regards
Gary.

[Jon Fuller]

Kerry, a British Power Boat Racing Association would most likely consist of the current ORC members, as they are basically the club reps from the various UK clubs as things stand.

For such an organisation to be formed, and actually work, in that it could replace the RYA, it would have to be handed over by the RYA and have their blessing, otherwise all the difficulties of approaching coast guards, harbour masters etc as a non affiliated org would still exist.

Whether the RYA would consider such a blessing (they might just consider it a blessing to 'them', who knows) we can't tell.

My own opinion is that 75% of what the PB1 consists of presently, should be thrown out, and anything rules wise that could / would be covered by existing UIM terms, should be used, thus simplifying the UK rules. by this, I mean things like the overtaking rule. if its good enough for the Union International Motornautiqe, I don't understand why we would try to alter it, and indeed, take on the responsibility if an accident occured and some smart arse lawyer tried to blame it on the non international methods used here.
then, the only exception should be class clasification for UK only classes such as OCR, and maybe Marathon (running Marathon back as originally intended, at let the 'others nations' run to the altered rules if they so wish, or indeed have the competitors to run races)

[PKJB]

Would the MSA (Motor Sports Association) be a possible way forward, they already have the infrastructure in place to support most requirements. A combination of their infrastructure and the knowledge that exists within the current clubs would create a "driving" (pun) force for improvement.

Is there any ruling to say that they couldn't be affiliated to both the FIA and UIM ?